INTERFAITH DIALOGUE: Why do we fail?
Tags: Buddhism, Christianity, Hindu, Interfaith dialogue, Islam, Religion
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ian Fraser on -
Dear Anand Krishna and respondents,
The cool-headed approach of writers like Karen Armstrong in UK and Harvey Cox in USA to interpretation of sacred scriptures and other trip-hazards in theology is very welcome in this world which suffers so much from too-literal reading of Scriptures.
I am glad to find this particular discussion has started. All other peace initiatives, hopes and prayers within the Peace Next context ring rather hollow if we do not also work towards the true peace between religious traditions that comes from appreciating - not just tolerating - the theology of traditions other than our own.
Ian Fraser
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Permalink Reply by Anand Krishna on -
Thanks James... I am a great fan of Karen Armstrong (sorry, haven't read Cox, must "find" him)... at the same time i am also a great admirer of Sam Harris (The End of Faith) - and although the two of them do not see things eye to eye - i remain faithful to both of them :-)
Karen does appreciate the differences, but she is not very clear when it comes to "what is written in the scriptures". Sam is clear, but does not offer any "applicable" solution, in the sense that not all can just forego of religion, as he does. I have no problem with Sam, but no everyone can do that.
So, our options are limited:
1. To publicly discuss all the theological issues in our religions, all of them.
2. To identify what are the contextual in them, and what are the universal values.
3. To let go of the contextual, and reinterpret the universal values to suit the challenges, and the needs of our age.
I have NO CHOICE but to discuss these things, because I am not a leader of some religious institution, i am not a philosopher, i am an activist - and my colleagues and i are facing problems on daily basis because of such theological issues.
Once again, James, i appreciate your note... Love always
Ian James Fraser said:Dear Anand Krishna and respondents,
The cool-headed approach of writers like Karen Armstrong in UK and Harvey Cox in USA to interpretation of sacred scriptures and other trip-hazards in theology is very welcome in this world which suffers so much from too-literal reading of Scriptures.
I am glad to find this particular discussion has started. All other peace initiatives, hopes and prayers within the Peace Next context ring rather hollow if we do not also work towards the true peace between religious traditions that comes from appreciating - not just tolerating - the theology of traditions other than our own.
Ian Fraser
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Permalink Reply by Mike Ghouse on -
Dear Anand,
I wish you had attended the program we did on reading the scriptures, it was a powerful program and these issues were addressed there.
God wants his creation to co-exist in harmony and the Qur’aan is God’s guidance to live in peace with oneself and what surrounds one; life and matter. The human weakness manufactures imaginary enemies, so did the European Medieval Kings in the 11th century, who paid to deliberately mis-translate the Qur’aan for their obvious gains, they duped the public then, and most of non-Muslim Islamic Scholars today are doing the same thing.
Now coming to your point
2. There are verses in the Muslim Al-Qur'an, which openly tells you to kill those identified as infidels. And, enmity against the Jews and Christians are sanctioned.
If you read the Quraan yourselves with the idea that we all belong to God, then you would understand that you were reading the mis-translations to have quoted the above item.
There are over 40 items, but please do read at least three:
An apology to Jews, Christians and others:
http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2008/01/unlike-jews-or-christians-17.html .
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them
http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2007/12/slay-idolaters-95.html
Muslim response to Geert wilders
http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2008/01/muslim-response-to-wilders.html
Please read it, you appreciate the Bhagvad Gita’ verse, “ finding the truth is one’s own responsibility and you may see that individual are bad, not their religion, no matter what religion.
Hilali Khan, a Muslim also mistranslated the book to appease his extremist friends, that is the free copy you may have it in your hands. Just remember God wants goodness for his creation, every one of it, then read Qur’aan in that light. Mohammad Asad’s translation is recommended at this time until a good one comes along where any one on the earth can read it and feel that God wants all of us to live in peace and harmony.
Finding the truth is your own responsibility.
I hope the scholars in Bible, Torah and others can share the wisdom in their texts, am sure it is mis-interpreted. The neocons are re-writing the Bible to suit their agenda.
Peace to you my friend, religion is never the problem, it is the greed, hate, insecurity of "men" that is the problem.
Blessings,
Mike Ghouse
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Permalink Reply by GPDC on -
Before we attend parliment we ask our first question was there any any results from the past parliments..found our answer harmony but not unity...then why waste so much efforts and money to organise such an big event but not zero in to deal with the problem..it end up a tea party after all..but fun..make a few friends..Everyone is too 'humble' and dare not tell the truth..All religions holding on to their forts scare to loose their identity...or hurting other by telling the truth..Interfaith Dialogue is not going anywhere..Religions all over the world are declining..Hopefully then humans will eventually come to one to Him OurCreator..
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Permalink Reply by Anand Krishna on
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My dear Brother Mike, thank you so much for the note... I understand, and agree with you 100%.
I have checked your blog posts suggested (with the exception of 'Geerts' - perhaps you can check the link, if it is broken); we have several interpretations in our library, including Asad's - yes i agree his is perhaps the best so far.
In the scholarly forums, and with like-minded people, it is easy to discuss issues like this, and reinterpret the verses. But, when it comes to the masses - no discussion is possible.
I wish, and this will be a great, great favor - you could interpret all those verses normally used by the radicals and terrorists to justify their acts of violence in a popular language.
Whenever this is ready, my dear Brother, i would, Insya Allah, see to it that your interpretation is translated into Indonesian bahasa and published for the benefit of those millions who have no access to the internet, and so far depend on the interpretation given them by the Saudi funded translations and interpretations.
I pray that you can soon complete this project, this, truly "holy" jihad...
Love n blessings as always
PS: My dear brother, sometime back i saw your family pictures posted on FB - this, my brother, at present time can never ever happen in this country. No matter how moderate, inclusive, or whatever, the family members of ulemas are expected to dress in the middle eastern fashion.
My dear brother, do you have plans to visit this part of the world?
I am not in position to foot the travel expense, but you shall be our guest. I would love to organize a public meeting where you can talk to students from several universities, muslims, and others, and share your views with them. This will be a great service, my brother...
We have an event in November (the second International Bali meditators' Festival around the 15th), if you could attend that and speak there, and then we travel together to jakarta, where we could organize another public meeting. Please let me know if you would be able to make the trip.
Allah Haafiz
Mike Ghouse said:Dear Anand,
I wish you had attended the program we did on reading the scriptures, it was a powerful program and these issues were addressed there.
God wants his creation to co-exist in harmony and the Qur’aan is God’s guidance to live in peace with oneself and what surrounds one; life and matter. The human weakness manufactures imaginary enemies, so did the European Medieval Kings in the 11th century, who paid to deliberately mis-translate the Qur’aan for their obvious gains, they duped the public then, and most of non-Muslim Islamic Scholars today are doing the same thing.
Now coming to your point
2. There are verses in the Muslim Al-Qur'an, which openly tells you to kill those identified as infidels. And, enmity against the Jews and Christians are sanctioned.
If you read the Quraan yourselves with the idea that we all belong to God, then you would understand that you were reading the mis-translations to have quoted the above item.
There are over 40 items, but please do read at least three:
An apology to Jews, Christians and others:
http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2008/01/unlike-jews-or-christians-17.html .
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them
http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2007/12/slay-idolaters-95.html
Muslim response to Geert wilders
http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2008/01/muslim-response-to-wilders.html
Please read it, you appreciate the Bhagvad Gita’ verse, “ finding the truth is one’s own responsibility and you may see that individual are bad, not their religion, no matter what religion.
Hilali Khan, a Muslim also mistranslated the book to appease his extremist friends, that is the free copy you may have it in your hands. Just remember God wants goodness for his creation, every one of it, then read Qur’aan in that light. Mohammad Asad’s translation is recommended at this time until a good one comes along where any one on the earth can read it and feel that God wants all of us to live in peace and harmony.
Finding the truth is your own responsibility.
I hope the scholars in Bible, Torah and others can share the wisdom in their texts, am sure it is mis-interpreted. The neocons are re-writing the Bible to suit their agenda.
Peace to you my friend, religion is never the problem, it is the greed, hate, insecurity of "men" that is the problem.
Blessings,
Mike Ghouse
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Permalink Reply by Anand Krishna on
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Yet, my dear fiend - we do not lose hope... together we can make the difference.
One day, soon, all of us will come out of our shells. We are suffocating inside these shells... Soon, my friend.. Love n blessings
GPDC said:Before we attend parliment we ask our first question was there any any results from the past parliments..found our answer harmony but not unity...then why waste so much efforts and money to organise such an big event but not zero in to deal with the problem..it end up a tea party after all..but fun..make a few friends..Everyone is too 'humble' and dare not tell the truth..All religions holding on to their forts scare to loose their identity...or hurting other by telling the truth..Interfaith Dialogue is not going anywhere..Religions all over the world are declining..Hopefully then humans will eventually come to one to Him OurCreator..
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Permalink Reply by Mike Ghouse on
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Dear Anand,
I appreciate the temptation to come to Bali, you have planted the seed, and let me see how it grows.
Insha Allah, I will complete the work on all the 60+ verses that are deliberately mistranslated to suit the Neocon Muslim, Neocon Christians and Neocon Jews
Mike
Anand Krishna said:My dear Brother Mike, thank you so much for the note... I understand, and agree with you 100%.
I have checked your blog posts suggested (with the exception of 'Geerts' - perhaps you can check the link, if it is broken); we have several interpretations in our library, including Asad's - yes i agree his is perhaps the best so far.
In the scholarly forums, and with like-minded people, it is easy to discuss issues like this, and reinterpret the verses. But, when it comes to the masses - no discussion is possible.
I wish, and this will be a great, great favor - you could interpret all those verses normally used by the radicals and terrorists to justify their acts of violence in a popular language.
Whenever this is ready, my dear Brother, i would, Insya Allah, see to it that your interpretation is translated into Indonesian bahasa and published for the benefit of those millions who have no access to the internet, and so far depend on the interpretation given them by the Saudi funded translations and interpretations.
I pray that you can soon complete this project, this, truly "holy" jihad...
Love n blessings as always
PS: My dear brother, sometime back i saw your family pictures posted on FB - this, my brother, at present time can never ever happen in this country. No matter how moderate, inclusive, or whatever, the family members of ulemas are expected to dress in the middle eastern fashion.
My dear brother, do you have plans to visit this part of the world?
I am not in position to foot the travel expense, but you shall be our guest. I would love to organize a public meeting where you can talk to students from several universities, muslims, and others, and share your views with them. This will be a great service, my brother...
We have an event in November (the second International Bali meditators' Festival around the 15th), if you could attend that and speak there, and then we travel together to jakarta, where we could organize another public meeting. Please let me know if you would be able to make the trip.
Allah Haafiz
Mike Ghouse said:Dear Anand,
I wish you had attended the program we did on reading the scriptures, it was a powerful program and these issues were addressed there.
God wants his creation to co-exist in harmony and the Qur’aan is God’s guidance to live in peace with oneself and what surrounds one; life and matter. The human weakness manufactures imaginary enemies, so did the European Medieval Kings in the 11th century, who paid to deliberately mis-translate the Qur’aan for their obvious gains, they duped the public then, and most of non-Muslim Islamic Scholars today are doing the same thing.
Now coming to your point
2. There are verses in the Muslim Al-Qur'an, which openly tells you to kill those identified as infidels. And, enmity against the Jews and Christians are sanctioned.
If you read the Quraan yourselves with the idea that we all belong to God, then you would understand that you were reading the mis-translations to have quoted the above item.
There are over 40 items, but please do read at least three:
An apology to Jews, Christians and others:
http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2008/01/unlike-jews-or-christians-17.html .
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them
http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2007/12/slay-idolaters-95.html
Muslim response to Geert wilders
http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2008/01/muslim-response-to-wilders.html
Please read it, you appreciate the Bhagvad Gita’ verse, “ finding the truth is one’s own responsibility and you may see that individual are bad, not their religion, no matter what religion.
Hilali Khan, a Muslim also mistranslated the book to appease his extremist friends, that is the free copy you may have it in your hands. Just remember God wants goodness for his creation, every one of it, then read Qur’aan in that light. Mohammad Asad’s translation is recommended at this time until a good one comes along where any one on the earth can read it and feel that God wants all of us to live in peace and harmony.
Finding the truth is your own responsibility.
I hope the scholars in Bible, Torah and others can share the wisdom in their texts, am sure it is mis-interpreted. The neocons are re-writing the Bible to suit their agenda.
Peace to you my friend, religion is never the problem, it is the greed, hate, insecurity of "men" that is the problem.
Blessings,
Mike Ghouse
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Permalink Reply by Grigori Rho Gharveyn on -
Peace Brother Anand.
We feel your distress at these troubling issues, however, as you move to a greater state of enlightenment these issues will remain while your accptance of them evolves.
We cannot take such issues head-on. Any such approach is controversial and raises the cultural auto-immune defense mechanisms of each participant, thereby reeducing their abilities to listen and learn form one another effectively.
We cannot demand actions of anyone other than ourselves. Thus does the path of peace always begin in our own hearts.
When you have come to peace within yourself you will see the path to peace in the outer world unfurl from your own speech, actions, and compassion.
Namaste
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Permalink Reply by Richard Boothe on -
The problem with fundamentalists is that they often have a very narrow, opinionated view of their own faiths, not to mention all the rest. In my humble experience, this stems from ignorance and prejudice, both of which are actually encouraged by the leaders of such faiths. That makes it hard to have a reasonable discussion with them, because they're trained to believe that opinions different from theirs are either misguided or evil.
The only open avenue I've found, lies in taking them further into the reality they claim to believe in, and showing them what it's really all about. For example, many Christians don't understand what Jesus actually taught, because their denominations chiefly study the writings of Paul. It also helps to know something about early Christian history - the various writings of the Church Fathers are a good place to find early beliefs which were later discarded when the Romans took over the faith.
Sam Starbuck said:I enjoyed reading your post. I think that the problem you speak of is very real. Also I believe it is compounded by a view that divinely inspired text are seen as the infallible word of god, and therefore not subject to error.
It seems as long as this inflexibility exists that open and meaningful dialogue about which passages need to be discussed in the way you mentioned will not happen. At least within certain groups. What are your thought on how to approach discussion with this type of fundamentalism?
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Permalink Reply by Spencer Perdriau on
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As with all things in life, it all comes down to true clarity, true understanding, and true realization - not personally, but collectively on the greater scale. Only when this happens will personal differences be overcome in greater appreciation of of the "same" Greater Reality in which we all equally share. This applies to everything in life, as well as religion and world scripture. As so many of us out there believe, Truth is certainly not personal. Only our perception and understanding of it is. Truth is a constant absolute principle of all reality that applies always to everything - past, present, future - known and unknown. Truth about reality applies just as much for one person as it does for a another person, or 10 trillion persons, no matter how different we take (perceive) it. Quite simply, Truth is what is real, accurate, actual and so. Truth is always, whether we realize/discover it or not.
No one can ever claim The Truth as their own, but It can be realized and appreciated for what it actually is. And in this proper-greater way, Truth does not become ours, but rather, we come into what is actually True.... we rest in and surrender to that grater always constant principle (of God). Indeed, The Truth does set you free.
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Permalink Reply by Mystic Tourist on -
Anand,
I do hope your persecution is drawing to an end and that the court declares your rightful innocence. I am free to be very careless in my regard to theology, without repercussion. I know that is not the way in Indonesia. At least not for you and you have not been careless with theology. You respect it. Theology is as a fortress and seeming designed for siege. It is poorly suited for the openness and bridge-building communication requires. It does not need to be that way and is or is not so at the discretion of the practitioner.
I personally have abandoned religion and devote myself directly to God. In my experience the kind of dialog you desire requires openness of all parties involved. Again theology is a poor vehicle for this. A person can not declare or imagine themselves right without assigning wrong. They are inseparable. The only thing I can see that begins to address this is example and I think that is something you have done. Of course we always need to temper ourselves with grace and love. In your struggle, I think that must be very challenging. You live as an activist in a place of political turmoil. If you can maintain a center of peace, love and grace those who will dialog will bridge to you.
I think people who think they are right due to theology or whatever can only be approached from within, a common issue that does not test their theology. I wish I had some wisdom that could illuminate the path you seek. You do have my compassion, my good will and my concern. I will continue to consider this.
Remain strong and be well Anand
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Permalink Reply by Richard Boothe on
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You asked for various scholars to share their understanding of scriptures. The problem, here, is that mere scholarship does not reveal the inner truth of mystical writings. Such knowledge - all true knowledge in fact - comes from personal experience. While this can be guided by scholars, they just as frequently misguide readers. So, as you've pointed out, it's best to read the original scriptures if possible. In the case of Chirstianity, however, some the most important original scriptures are missing. One of those is the so-called 'Gospel of the Hebrews' (the one used by Jesus' original followers in Jerusalem, according to Church Fathers), of which only fragmentary quotes remain. These quotes more closely resemble sayings in the Gospel of Thomas (which Roman theologians originally destroyed, but was then rediscovered in 1945) than those in the New Testament. In my view, the close resemblence between certain passages in Thomas and the Gospel of the Hebrews tends to affirm the former's authenticity, which is important because many of the ideas found there are key to both understanding what Jesus actually taught, and bridging the gap between Christianity and other religions.
Paradoxically, Christian theology has largely ignored Christ's teachings in favor of Paul's - many of which clash with those of Jesus and his original disciples - and has also introduced Gentile beliefs foreign to both. It is instructive, here, that a deep reading of Jesus' words in the Bible, coupled with those in the Gospel of Thomas, reveals an entirely different faith - one based on practicing said teachings and experiencing heaven on earth, as opposed to the Roman theological goal of life after death. That, in turn, is key to bridging the gap between Christianity, Islam, Judaism and other faiths because, once we grasp that Jesus' original goal was heaven on earth - otherwise known as Paradise - it becomes nearly identical to the original goals of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism. This is readily accomplished, however, only when one has put those teachings into practice and discovered what they really mean.
Mike Ghouse said:
Dear Anand,
I appreciate the temptation to come to Bali, you have planted the seed, and let me see how it grows.
Insha Allah, I will complete the work on all the 60+ verses that are deliberately mistranslated to suit the Neocon Muslim, Neocon Christians and Neocon Jews
Mike
Anand Krishna said:My dear Brother Mike, thank you so much for the note... I understand, and agree with you 100%.
I have checked your blog posts suggested (with the exception of 'Geerts' - perhaps you can check the link, if it is broken); we have several interpretations in our library, including Asad's - yes i agree his is perhaps the best so far.
In the scholarly forums, and with like-minded people, it is easy to discuss issues like this, and reinterpret the verses. But, when it comes to the masses - no discussion is possible.
I wish, and this will be a great, great favor - you could interpret all those verses normally used by the radicals and terrorists to justify their acts of violence in a popular language.
Whenever this is ready, my dear Brother, i would, Insya Allah, see to it that your interpretation is translated into Indonesian bahasa and published for the benefit of those millions who have no access to the internet, and so far depend on the interpretation given them by the Saudi funded translations and interpretations.
I pray that you can soon complete this project, this, truly "holy" jihad...
Love n blessings as always
PS: My dear brother, sometime back i saw your family pictures posted on FB - this, my brother, at present time can never ever happen in this country. No matter how moderate, inclusive, or whatever, the family members of ulemas are expected to dress in the middle eastern fashion.
My dear brother, do you have plans to visit this part of the world?
I am not in position to foot the travel expense, but you shall be our guest. I would love to organize a public meeting where you can talk to students from several universities, muslims, and others, and share your views with them. This will be a great service, my brother...
We have an event in November (the second International Bali meditators' Festival around the 15th), if you could attend that and speak there, and then we travel together to jakarta, where we could organize another public meeting. Please let me know if you would be able to make the trip.
Allah Haafiz
Mike Ghouse said:Dear Anand,
I wish you had attended the program we did on reading the scriptures, it was a powerful program and these issues were addressed there.
God wants his creation to co-exist in harmony and the Qur’aan is God’s guidance to live in peace with oneself and what surrounds one; life and matter. The human weakness manufactures imaginary enemies, so did the European Medieval Kings in the 11th century, who paid to deliberately mis-translate the Qur’aan for their obvious gains, they duped the public then, and most of non-Muslim Islamic Scholars today are doing the same thing.
Now coming to your point
2. There are verses in the Muslim Al-Qur'an, which openly tells you to kill those identified as infidels. And, enmity against the Jews and Christians are sanctioned.
If you read the Quraan yourselves with the idea that we all belong to God, then you would understand that you were reading the mis-translations to have quoted the above item.
There are over 40 items, but please do read at least three:
An apology to Jews, Christians and others:
http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2008/01/unlike-jews-or-christians-17.html .
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them
http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2007/12/slay-idolaters-95.html
Muslim response to Geert wilders
http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2008/01/muslim-response-to-wilders.html
Please read it, you appreciate the Bhagvad Gita’ verse, “ finding the truth is one’s own responsibility and you may see that individual are bad, not their religion, no matter what religion.
Hilali Khan, a Muslim also mistranslated the book to appease his extremist friends, that is the free copy you may have it in your hands. Just remember God wants goodness for his creation, every one of it, then read Qur’aan in that light. Mohammad Asad’s translation is recommended at this time until a good one comes along where any one on the earth can read it and feel that God wants all of us to live in peace and harmony.
Finding the truth is your own responsibility.
I hope the scholars in Bible, Torah and others can share the wisdom in their texts, am sure it is mis-interpreted. The neocons are re-writing the Bible to suit their agenda.
Peace to you my friend, religion is never the problem, it is the greed, hate, insecurity of "men" that is the problem.
Blessings,
Mike Ghouse
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