Do we need Churches (Religious Institutions)?
I do not think we need them.
Free religious teachings and religions from institutions monopolizing them - and we have a better world.
OR, do not limit the number of institutions... let there be billions of churches, one customized church for each individual...
Just a thought
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ron Krumpos on -
Claudia,
You're right. Religions of authority, i.e. institutional religions, are less important than religion of the spirit. A long quote:
An Idealist View of Life, by Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan (Published by Jeremy P. Tarcher/Putnam 1932, 2003)
Note: He was the President of India 1962-67, Vice President 1952-62 and a Professor at Oxford University 1936-52.
In 1962, I was introduced to Dr. Radhakrishnan by John Kenneth Galbraith, then the U.S. Ambassador to India.
“It is the aim of religion to lift us from our momentary meaningless provincialism to the significance and status of the eternal, to transform the chaos and confusion of life to that pure and immortal essence which is its ideal possibility. If the human mind so changes itself as to be perpetually in the glory of the divine light, if the human emotions transform themselves into the measure and movement of the divine bliss, if human action partakes of the creativity of the divine life, if the human life shares the purity of the divine essence, if only we can support this higher life, the long labour of the cosmic process will receive its crowning justification and the evolution of centuries unfold its profound significance.
The divinising of the life of man in the individual and the race is the dream of the great religions. It is the moksha of the Hindus, the nirvana of the Buddhists, [baqa of the Muslims] the kingdom of heaven of the Christians [the messianic age of the Jews]. It is the realization of one’s native form, the restoration of one’s integrity of being. Heaven is not a place where God lives but an order of being, a world of spirit where the ideas of wisdom, love and beauty exist eternally, a kingdom into which we all may enter at once in spirit, which we can realize fully in ourselves and in society though only by long and patient effort.
The world reaches its consummation when every man [all people] knows himself [themselves] to be the immortal spirit, the son of God, and is it. Till this goal is reached, each saved individual [who has actualized divine union] is the centre of the universal consciousness. He continues to act without the sense of ego. To be saved is not to be moved from this world. Salvation is not an escape from life. The individual works in the cosmic process no longer as an obscure and limited ego, but as the centre of the divine or universal consciousness embracing and transforming into harmony all individual manifestations. It is to live in the world with one’s inward being profoundly modified. The soul takes possession of itself and cannot be shaken from its tranquility by the attractions and attacks of the world.”
(quoted from my e-book at http://www.suprarational.org ; very few other world leaders would write like this) -
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Permalink Reply by Maynard on -
Dear Claudia,
Yes, "Churches provide an easy path of conformity"
And also more than conformity, they (not exclusively) provide the fellowship which you referenced initially, and also opportunity, for those with less established independence, and for those with a vision in want of kindred souls. I understand that many people have negative experiences with many things including institutionalized religions and churches; but those in regular attendance do not. Churches will cease to exist when they no longer provide a desired service. We don't need to extinguish them, and I don't suggest that you or any other desires to. Those who derive no benefit, don't participate; those who do benefit, do participate.
It is unsettling for me when they do go "off course" or otherwise fail to promote peace, harmony, and the truth that, as you noted,
"its all the same Creator"
Yes! there can be only One of those :)
in Peace,
--Maynard -
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Permalink Reply by Claudia on
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Hello Ron... the writer of this post (Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan ) is/was certainly ahead of his time. He speaks as if he has his heart and mind on the pulse of divinity. The Kingdom of God is within us and all who chose to "live in the world with one’s inward being profoundly modified" is practically in heaven/nirvana/paradise etc already. To "act without the sense of ego" is a far journey into divine consciousness; an evolution that I hope is greatly facilitated in the next plane of existence.
Wow! Thanks!
Claudia
Ron Krumpos said:Claudia,
You're right. Religions of authority, i.e. institutional religions, are less important than religion of the spirit. A long quote:
An Idealist View of Life, by Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan (Published by Jeremy P. Tarcher/Putnam 1932, 2003)
Note: He was the President of India 1962-67, Vice President 1952-62 and a Professor at Oxford University 1936-52.
In 1962, I was introduced to Dr. Radhakrishnan by John Kenneth Galbraith, then the U.S. Ambassador to India.
“It is the aim of religion to lift us from our momentary meaningless provincialism to the significance and status of the eternal, to transform the chaos and confusion of life to that pure and immortal essence which is its ideal possibility. If the human mind so changes itself as to be perpetually in the glory of the divine light, if the human emotions transform themselves into the measure and movement of the divine bliss, if human action partakes of the creativity of the divine life, if the human life shares the purity of the divine essence, if only we can support this higher life, the long labour of the cosmic process will receive its crowning justification and the evolution of centuries unfold its profound significance.
The divinising of the life of man in the individual and the race is the dream of the great religions. It is the moksha of the Hindus, the nirvana of the Buddhists, [baqa of the Muslims] the kingdom of heaven of the Christians [the messianic age of the Jews]. It is the realization of one’s native form, the restoration of one’s integrity of being. Heaven is not a place where God lives but an order of being, a world of spirit where the ideas of wisdom, love and beauty exist eternally, a kingdom into which we all may enter at once in spirit, which we can realize fully in ourselves and in society though only by long and patient effort.
The world reaches its consummation when every man [all people] knows himself [themselves] to be the immortal spirit, the son of God, and is it. Till this goal is reached, each saved individual [who has actualized divine union] is the centre of the universal consciousness. He continues to act without the sense of ego. To be saved is not to be moved from this world. Salvation is not an escape from life. The individual works in the cosmic process no longer as an obscure and limited ego, but as the centre of the divine or universal consciousness embracing and transforming into harmony all individual manifestations. It is to live in the world with one’s inward being profoundly modified. The soul takes possession of itself and cannot be shaken from its tranquility by the attractions and attacks of the world.”
(quoted from my e-book at http://www.suprarational.org ; very few other world leaders would write like this) -
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Yes Maynard, you have !hit the nail on the head"! Churches are what they are and they will evolve as all things do. I feel our civilization is on the brink of a spiritual awakening. A consciousness that will speak through the intelligent mind to the evolving soul...which will liberate those who choose to shed the conformity of creeds. God conscious people may always seek the like-minded spiritual souls for fellowship and service. Churches, such as they are, may cease to exist..or perhaps evolve into the needed sanctuaries of respite with the Divine and service centers to our fellows. Maybe 100 or 200 years?
Maynard said:Dear Claudia,
Yes, "Churches provide an easy path of conformity"
And also more than conformity, they (not exclusively) provide the fellowship which you referenced initially, and also opportunity, for those with less established independence, and for those with a vision in want of kindred souls. I understand that many people have negative experiences with many things including institutionalized religions and churches; but those in regular attendance do not. Churches will cease to exist when they no longer provide a desired service. We don't need to extinguish them, and I don't suggest that you or any other desires to. Those who derive no benefit, don't participate; those who do benefit, do participate.
It is unsettling for me when they do go "off course" or otherwise fail to promote peace, harmony, and the truth that, as you noted,
"its all the same Creator"
Yes! there can be only One of those :)
in Peace,
--Maynard -
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Permalink Reply by mary jane miller on -
http://www.peacebestill.net/index.html There is an irrevocable, unconditional norm for healing our spiritual selves, in our families, communities, nations, and religions. In particular, there is need right now for the spiritual healing with regard to the aggression and hatred in the name of religion. Ancient guidelines for human behavior in many cultures have the potential to sustain a peaceful world order. We are interdependent on the well-being of all nations.We must choose to accept there is only continuous change. If each of us focuses on peace and not being a hinderance to others, everyone’s intentions, desires and actions will affect the well-being of the many.
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Permalink Reply by Spencer Perdriau on
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Your question: "Do we need churches (religious institutions)?
My answer: "Indeed yes, very much so!"
PS: If you want my extended detailed answer to this, then get back to me.
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In short and quite simply, "Truth" is what is real/actual/so.
...If God is the Ultimate-Absolute Reality of all, then yes, "absolutely", God is Truth in The Highest possible sense known, or more accurately "unknown" to most of us (as It "actually" Is).
... What we humans believe God to be and what God actually is is probably the most important and sacred unfolding journey of us all to come back home into mystic union/realization with The Lord.
Mystic Blessings from Spencer :))
Anand Krishna said:Reverend Douglas, Truth?
If Truth is God, then Knowing Truth is Knowing God. Do we know God, can we?
I dont know.
I can benefit from God though :-)
The way i benefit from the rays of the sun... but do i know what and how sun is exactly? We are merely guessing..
More later... Love n blsgs -
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Permalink Reply by mary jane miller on
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Lovely analogy comparing God and the sun, it expresses a deep reality that can potentially lead us to peace. That kind of truth one does not argue, instead meditate, contemplate, reason,reflect etc.. This is a good thing
peace
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Permalink Reply by Mystic Tourist on -
Anand, I could not agree more. There are many wonderful people who are religious, it is not because of the religion, it is due to the person. Personally, I miss the community of religion, not because of the religion, but the community. We know religion is a human invention and its institution is such. The only institution God requires is the one person, the self, the single person we all are. When that person stands with God, God finds a community.
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Permalink Reply by Larry Lagrone on -
Wonderful question;as a child of The Almighty Divine One, and a Christian,active local community membership is imperative to my living a life without compromise. It is only through the ministry of the local church that I can receive the kind of teaching, accountability, and encouragement that is necessary for me to stand firm in my convictions; I believe that God has ordained that the church provide the kind of environment where an uncompromising life can thrive.
The New Testament Scriptures(Acts 2:42) show me what the early church did when they met together: "They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." They learned God's Scriptures and the implications of it in their lives; they joined to carry out acts of love and service to one another; they joined hands and hearts in the breaking of bread; and they prayed.
Of course, we can do these things individually, but it's my belief that The Almighty has called us into His" being" His body in the Christian perspective); the Church,Synagogue,Mosque,or Temple is the local representation of that worldwide-being,and we should gladly minister and be ministered to among God's people.
Pax et Bonum :)
~Larry L. S.F.0.
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Permalink Reply by Larry Lagrone on
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Permalink Reply by Andrew D. Whitmont on -
Its not a question of whether we need religious institutions (RI) or not, but one of how do the RI's serve, since obviously they exist.
There are at least two answers. First, that people who are more sociable, as opposed to individually self reliant or those who prefer to relate only in pairs, the sociable people are group oriented and they come together in community. Community is a necessary and powerful attractor, without which there is loss of energy, like a coal apart from the fire that can not sustain itself alone. This is the grounds for the formation of RI's. They are community phenomena. In the best case scenario the RI will serve the people as an extension of them, their collective will and their desire to collectively seek the sacred.
in another sense the RI can gain a life of its own and become self serving. This has been the history of Christianity, starting with the Roman Empire. Original Christianity, a similimum of which is now emerging in many quarters, evolved into gnosticism (later proclaimed a heresy). Unfortunately , when the Roman empire needed a doctrine to use in its "Department of Religion", it picked Christianity (which it subsequently distorted for its own power and people management ends). A kind of Frankenstein's Monster was created: an institution which for about two thousand years has principally served its own ends.
Now, do we NEED this? Well, if we wish to believe that being human means only being spiritual, (your ideal) then obviously we do not. However, if we recognize the somewhat messier reality that being human also means being ignorant, deluded, misguided and attached to desire, fear and anger, then it is readily apparent that we do indeed NEED such things as power mongering institutions, since they are expressions of our self, the one being, as we manifest, cut off from ourself.
In addition, a third sense in which RI's can be useful, is to provide an entry way for those who want to go beyond. Its like a ladder. If there is no ladder to climb you can't get to the top of it and say to yourself, maybe I'd like to leave the ladder and climb up on the roof. The ladder is a challenge, and some only make a few rungs, but there are those who start out with the belief that the ladder is all there is. Then they discover that its not so hard to climb it, or even to run up and down it and up again. Then what? Well, what is beyond? Let's leap off the top of the ladder and go further.
But wait! What if there were no ladder? No RI. There never would have been an invitation, a path, a route to follow and to supercede, to step beyond.
So, yes, we do NEED RI's for those who are in that position of "using" the RI to go beyond it.
Admitedly there are abuses on the part of RI's and I do not wish to suggest that my comments above exempt the RI's from responsibilty for the consequences of their abuses. I am only responding to the one side of the question, leaving the other side alone.
On another topic, begun below by Sande Hart's mention of Judaism, followed by Ananda Krishna's comments, I must say that there is a huge gap of understanding. Judaism and other RI's, are not just a philosophy and not just a social institution. It is those things, but not JUST those things. What you are missing, Ananda of the sixth chakra, is the passion, the love, the sense of deep identity and belonging that is carried by this and other RI's when they are not overwhelmed by the power needs of the administrators, as in for instance the Roman Empire's Catholic church.
The passion of the jew, of the non dogmatic Christian, and no doubt of others in other RI's across the board, is a deep force, a feeling, a "sine qua non" of life and being. This is in fact a paradox, as it is both a powerful force of attachment to the illusion of individualized identity and a springboard beyond the self, into a total loss of self through the numinous (as Jung put it).
We are far from perfect. The reason this forum exists is to explore our possibliities, not to judge. Open your heart. We are all one another and this means all the error, foolishness, stupidity, bullishness, fear, anger, abuse, craziness and so on are you, not to be denied, (and me) as well. Let us be compassionate. To love one another means to accept, not to exclude. -
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