Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by innerpeace on February 12, 2010 at 12:13am

As we collectively become more aware of our similarities and need to work together, the religious bodies will set up a howl of holy diatribe against anything that has not come from its breast or mouth. We collectively must understand and nuture this seed of change and universal love that is now blowing in the air for all humankind. The churches et all has only one agenda, control humankind. period.

Permalink Reply by Maynard on February 12, 2010 at 8:18am

I thank you, dominggus, for your kind contribution and insight to this discussion, from which *yet_again* I see how different the situation can be amongst us.

In my western Christian environment, I am able to honor Muhammad and Krishna and the Buddah and the others, including my own heart and prayers and meditations, as well as the Jesus, and mostly of course their teachings, not their persons or their derived institutions.

I am also thankful for the instutions, as you can see from earlier posts here, and I yet retain considerable hope that they can be flexible and transformed, at least some of them.

I become sad when I see people turn away and separate themselves from God, and the messengers and messages therefrom. So I agree with you that this sadness can be reversed by concentrating first upon the messages themselves, and being sincerely grateful for them, and then according the circumstances by which those messages came to us and our acceptance.

in Peace,
--Maynard

Permalink Reply by Anand Krishna on February 14, 2010 at 8:13pm

i thank everyone for their beautiful thoughts... Dominggus, having discussed this issue on and off line with a lot of westerners, i am more convinced now that we are living in two different worlds... Maynard represents the west where message comes first before the messengers and the churches built around them.

In the east, especially in our country Indonesia, very sadly churches come first.. This situation must be reversed. We have a lot, a lot to achieve within our lifetimes... We certainly do not want to leave Indonesia as she exists presently to our children.

I know, and you know that this is a gigantic task... Just look what is happening to us.. how are we being persecuted... Love n blsgs

Permalink Reply by Maynard on February 14, 2010 at 9:27pm

Maybe we'll be blessed with hearing from friends elsewhere in the world on this topic.

In America, any handful of people who which to start a church can easily begin by acquiring some space and using it, carrying the process to any extent of formality and size. Some of them are way too big for my tastes. Here's a directory of some "mega churches"; note "non-denominational/independent" status. Fortunately there is no pressure or requirement for me to set foot inside. http://www.usachurches.org/size/mega/

The quantity of smaller gatherings is greater and not easily tallied. Many worship together in homes and coffee houses.

It frankly didn't occur to me that this basic freedom wouldn't be universal.

Permalink Reply by innerpeace on February 14, 2010 at 9:31pm

blessed love to all, giving thanks for this forum to express views that are not the accepted mainstream points of view. For me as a woman I find it interesting that no one has spoken on the family as the main root of all spiritual/religious development. I want this point to be very clear, the mother is the tool that hands down the first education to all human beings. what are women doing or not doing in the home that is leading to so much hatred and violence from the children once they leave her. Or is it a lack of a balanced home and community that is manifesting as people(children) without hope or knowledge of love. Just a point of view

Permalink Reply by Anand Krishna on February 14, 2010 at 9:52pm

Maynard, yes, we are not only DENIED the universal freedom you spoke about, but also persecuted for voicing our concerns... our struggle is a long, long one.... hey would do anything to stop us.... they would stoop down to any level....

In Indonesia, only 6 religions are officially recognized, Islam, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Buddhism, Confucianism, and Hinduism. No,w each of these six official religions have their "major" government sanctioned bodies... and all these bodies come under the ministry of religious affairs.....

So, these major bodies of major religions have a TOTAL MONOPOLY.... any though deviating from the mainstream is immediately declared as hearsay, and people involved are dragged to the court of law....

In spite of this situation our authorities project the country as tolerant, and US officials acknowledge this.. When they come here, they get to meet only those state recognized and funded agencies... they dont get to meet people at the grass roots, those who are being persecuted...

Dominggus was in the seminary, but rather disappointed with what is happening around him... There are many others... He lives very far from the center, so perhaps perceived less dangerous... but the freedom is all the same denied...

This is why i have been desperately crying for help.... Please put some sense into the heads of the American authorities, that if they do not do something about this and keep funding those bodies affiliated with the state, they are actually creating another Taliban like monster..

If this situation is not reversed, if Pres Obama does not do anything about this, let me tell you in all good faith, that you had a better president in Bush... What a tragedy!

Maynard said:

Maybe we'll be blessed with hearing from friends elsewhere in the world on this topic.

In America, any handful of people who which to start a church can easily begin by acquiring some space and using it, carrying the process to any extent of formality and size. Some of them are way too big for my tastes. Here's a directory of some "mega churches"; note "non-denominational/independent" status. Fortunately there is no pressure or requirement for me to set foot inside. http://www.usachurches.org/size/mega/

The quantity of smaller gatherings is greater and not easily tallied. Many worship together in homes and coffee houses.

It frankly didn't occur to me that this basic freedom wouldn't be universal.

Permalink Reply by innerpeace on February 15, 2010 at 11:49am

Replying to Mr. Maynard's observation about the lack of freedom in religion in other countries from host churches that are based on Western Countries come as no surprise. If you drove around on any given Sunday in America you will see how polarized the instutition of Religion is here. Much of the economic woes in your beautiful country can be traced to th benefits the churches get from certain gifts from the state. How do I know this I ran into the Chatholic Church head on in Jamaica while there as a medical missionary. Many who come to your country are there to benefit the state. There is never a rally of the people to demand accountablity of these churches coming and doing their disservice in distant lands around the world. That is what is needed, People who look like you to head up this churches and the outsiders to only be onlookers, not able to direct policy or make critical decisions that effect the freedom and lifestyle of the people there. They should follow a policy made by the people not the government. This is not the correct way of healing and nuturing communities or countries to learn to live and work together without anger and biases. Many of the focus of these churches is to teach the children biases in the name of religion and now you have a new group of hate mongers ready to go to war generation after generation.

Permalink Reply by dominggus koro on February 18, 2010 at 2:01am

Hi Steve..Great! I fully agree with you..
I'd rather add on top your beautiful thoughts: that rites and prayers and being religiously present at the church (or any house of worship) are sort of watering and nourishing our souls and hearts to become the fertile seedling beds for LOVE to sprout and bloom and bear fruits. Right now LOVE is just a potential in every human's inner being despite our mouths are tirelessly uttering LOVE but,alas, it's simply a WORD--a dead one, no meaning at all! If we perform rites and prayers just for the sake of rites and prayers themselves or just because we want to appease God from being neither restless nor angry with us that HE may turn away from us by not granting us wealth and prosperity then we shall never be spiritual...we simply embrace a religion--that's all Did Jesus leave, out of his words of teachings, any meditation exercises? I'm pretty certain He did. I'm sure Catholic priests practice meditation exercise--which is totally different from being sitting motionless and concentrated. Meditation, in my opinion, is the ultimate way to kindle to the flame of LOVE within. Can't churches (of any denominations) introduce meditations methods?--I'm truly longing to see people, the Christians, gather around a priests to practice meditation.LOVE LOVE is our True Being...not a WORD. Thanks Steve, Meynard, Innerpiece and Bapak Anand Krishna for sharing. Catholic is my religion, my path, my way and I've found LOVE here. One Earth One Sky One Humankind




Anand Krishna said:

Reverend Douglas, Truth?
If Truth is God, then Knowing Truth is Knowing God. Do we know God, can we? I dont know. I can benefit from God though :-) The way i benefit from the rays of the sun... but do i know what and how sun is exactly? We are merely guessing..
More later... Love n blsgs

Rev. Douglas Walker said:

Dear All,

Hadrian Judge started me thinking when he said, "I believe the whole truth is only accessible to those who’ve achieved a superior understanding of reality; then those people shut up because a lot of what they understand about reality will be misinterpreted by the rest of us". This made me think about the nature of truth. Pondering this I had a few thoughts about truth that I would like to share. These ideas were and are radical to me and so I hope that people won't fine reason for offense but will consider what I say and help me think about this. It seems to me that no other word or concept has caused more suffering and harm then the word "Truth". Every war and conflict has had as it's support the idea of truth. Each religion has used this idea of truth as the bull-work of their exclusive claim to the superior knowledge. Neighbor fights neighbor in the name of truth, families are divided in the name of it, and Churches, synagogs, temples and mosques are burned down in the name of truth.
The idea of truth is so important in the affairs of humanity that we have even created a hierarchy of truth to insure that our' or someone's truth is superior to the other persons truth. We have labeled these, Ultimate Truth and Relative Truth. An endless number of speculations, philosophies, theologies, dogmas and scientific discoveries have extolled the latest and greatest "Ultimate truth" only to be replaced by one higher, better or more ultimate.

So I have a thought which I will put forward, not as a Truth but as something to consider, to think about, and ponder. What if the truth about truth is that it is a product of Humanity's Primal Insecurity? What if it has arisen in the sphere of human consciousness as a result of the simple fact that we humans find ourselves adrift in an infinitely huge ocean of change, an enormous cosmos that is completely beyond our control and that scares the heck out of us. Like person a who has fallen in a raging river we scramble and clutch at anything (any truth) that can make us feel safe?

Is the Idea behind truth Safety? Is this why people are willing to fight and die in order to maintain their idea of truth at all cost.
What would the world be like if we could all just dropped the whole idea of truth and just let go and float in trust in the unknown and unknowing? And who is this self that could possibly know the truth for everyone and all times anyway.

Knowing truth is not necessary in order to live from values. Values arise from within each of us from the knowing of what feels right and good to us and knowing that this must be so for others. No one teaches us that a sunset is beautiful, yet it is universally beautiful. We instinctually know the value of beauty and just the same with all other values. But often our idea of truth trumps values and when it does we create a hell on earth. Could we simply choose to let go and trust in not knowing? What might our world be like if we could? Anand asked "Do we really need Churches anyway?" that is a great question. Do we? The question behind that is, Do we really need truth anyway? What do you say?

Just some random thoughts.
Blessings - Doug

Permalink Reply by Claudia on March 30, 2010 at 8:48pm

Fellowship with faith-children of the Creator is important. Creedal pressures from an institution certainly is not needed. Unity of goals, not uniformity of belief. Churches serve a purpose...and perhaps they will evolve into true houses of the spirit for all humankind... One Human Family.

Permalink Reply by Maynard on March 30, 2010 at 10:37pm

With thanks to Claudia for noting that "Fellowship with faith-children of the Creator is important.", I would like to add that there is an unimaginable diversity within "we".. Some need churches; some even need at least for a short time the creedal pressures; some need religion; some this religion; some that religion; some this creed and some another creed; some don't at least for a period of their lives need any religion at all; and some need to actively resist religion or church or both.

All in their appropriate time and circumstance; and all evolving so that "need" is ever fluid even for a single individual.

For my part, I'm comfortable responding to my dear friends here that there is no "we" and there is no "need". There are however churches, and religions. The paradox is that "we", or some component thereof, created both, probably out of some perceived "need".

in Peace,
--Maynard

Permalink Reply by Anand Krishna on March 31, 2010 at 3:40am

Amen Amin Sadhu Om Shanti..

Claudia said:

Fellowship with faith-children of the Creator is important. Creedal pressures from an institution certainly is not needed. Unity of goals, not uniformity of belief. Churches serve a purpose...and perhaps they will evolve into true houses of the spirit for all humankind... One Human Family.

Permalink Reply by Claudia on March 31, 2010 at 8:38pm

Thank you Maynard for your kind insights. The 6 Billion residents of our world are certainly evolving. Until the human race progresses to the level of a higher and more general recognition of the realities of spiritual experience, large numbers of men and women will continue to show a personal preference for those religions of authority which require only intellectual assent, in contrast to the religion of the spirit, which entails active participation of mind and soul in the faith adventure of grappling with the realities of progressive human experience.

The religion of the spirit means effort, struggle, conflict, faith, determination, love, loyalty, and progress. The religion of the mind—the theology of authority—the churches - requires little or none of these exertions. Tradition is a safe refuge and an easy path for those fearful and halfhearted souls who instinctively shun the spirit struggles and mental uncertainties associated with the faith voyages of daring adventure out upon the high seas of unexplored truth in search of spiritual realities.

Churches provide an easy path of conformity to established and fossilized religion. But their motives are innate... and its all the same Creator.


Maynard said:

With thanks to Claudia for noting that "Fellowship with faith-children of the Creator is important.", I would like to add that there is an unimaginable diversity within "we".. Some need churches; some even need at least for a short time the creedal pressures; some need religion; some this religion; some that religion; some this creed and some another creed; some don't at least for a period of their lives need any religion at all; and some need to actively resist religion or church or both.

All in their appropriate time and circumstance; and all evolving so that "need" is ever fluid even for a single individual.

For my part, I'm comfortable responding to my dear friends here that there is no "we" and there is no "need". There are however churches, and religions. The paradox is that "we", or some component thereof, created both, probably out of some perceived "need".

in Peace,
--Maynard

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